Proposed amendments to MAAC rules

[Eric Marchand]

I don't know if anybody else did a quick read of the resolutions that will be voted on at the march 30th MAAC AGM, but I thought I might bring up a few that I find of particular interest to our members. These are just highlights of the actual resolution :


New UAV committee
New noise guidelines
MAAC Membership dues paid after sept 1st carry over to the next year, like we do at WIMAC
No more flying form outside pilot stations, even for take offs and landings
Travel funding for international IMAC competitors
Insurance incidents to be posted on MAAC website and in Model Aviation
Power endorsements for pilots earning their wings using electric powered planes only


It will be interesting to see how these propositions come out...

[beto9]

I don't know if anybody else did a quick read of the resolutions that will be voted on at the march 30th MAAC AGM, but I thought I might bring up a few that I find of particular interest to our members. These are just highlights of the actual resolution :

MAAC Membership dues paid after sept 1st carry over to the next year, like we do at WIMAC
[/LIST]

It will be interesting to see how these propositions come out...

Auuuugh! I thought this is not our case anymore with the memberships... I am confused... (so, what is new about me?)

[xed]

I don't know if anybody else did a quick read of the resolutions that will be voted on at the march 30th MAAC AGM, but I thought I might bring up a few that I find of particular interest to our members. These are just highlights of the actual resolution :


New UAV committee
New noise guidelines
MAAC Membership dues paid after sept 1st carry over to the next year, like we do at WIMAC
No more flying form outside pilot stations, even for take offs and landings
Travel funding for international IMAC competitors
Insurance incidents to be posted on MAAC website and in Model Aviation
Power endorsements for pilots earning their wings using electric powered planes only


It will be interesting to see how these propositions come out...

Yes, more wasting of our money on non-insurance items. If you cannot afford to travel for a competition, don't go, period.

Power endorsement thing is just ridiculous... Just implies that it is somehow safer to fly an electric plane than a glow powered plane. Both hitting you at high speed can still be lethal.

The insurance incident publicity would be nice to know about, particularly how the incidents happened with the hopes of preventing them in the future.

Most of these will hopefully never see the light of day.

[stephane.savard]

Most of these will in fact not see the light of day. If you look at past agm meeting minutes, you can see that there's a lot of these types of resolutions that don't get passed for one reason or another.

Just fact that they appear in the pre-agm MAC magazine only means that the resolution was proposed at a single zone meeting, and somehow got enough votes to make it to the MAAC AGM. It doesn't mean that the resolution has widespread support throughout Canada.

As to how they got proposed and passed in the zone meetings? well, that's easy, lots of proxy votes and a single small group of people get get these resolution proposed easily enough.

The power endorsement has received lots of critisim on rccanada.

[Safety First]

I agree with Greg.

[Xavier]

Greg,

Do you think the amateur skiers going to the international contests pay everything themselves? Do you think the speed skaters pay their trip when they go to the Olympics? It’s the same for most other sports. The federation or whatever it's called support their members who participate in competitions, especially at high level. The participants still have to spend money but at least they feel the rest of the organization support them.

I believe the F3A (pattern) team got about 3000$ total for 3 pilots, 3 helpers and a manager when they went to the world championship in Argentina last November. The pilots each spend more than that for the 2 weeks trip, not including the equipment. The big companies don’t give much anymore to the sponsored pilots. The guys still have to pay for most of their equipment and usually get reduce prices. The team did a good job finishing 10th out of 34 countries. The team had sold tickets for a few prices given by the team sponsors to raise some money but they got only a few hundred dollars. The world championships of any discipline happen once every 2 years. It means that the 3000$ above is really 1500$/year for that team. I don’t know about the other teams.

Another aspect of competitions that is often forgotten is the technology that comes out of it. How did we get to the programmable radios, digital servos, tune pipes, 150cc gas engines, 30% nitro, high performance electric, micro servos, Lipo, 3D airplanes, foamies, 40% airplanes, etc? The competitors are looking for the best equipment to improve performance. When they don’t found what they want, they create it, adapt it from another domain, or found someone to create it for them. Once it’s created, everyone else get it at one point.

Look at how much money is spend for the MAAC magazine. From what I understand, MAAC even pay for the postage in addition to that. Try to found the money coming from all the advertisements in the magazine. It’s not there because it doesn’t go to MAAC. Don’t you think this is a lot bigger waist of our money? Would you pay to buy this magazine every month at the news store? I don’t think I would. If I understand correctly, the magazine cost us almost as much as the insurance. Does it make sense?

In case you don’t know, I have been competing in pattern and sometime in Imac for almost 10 years and I paid everything myself and I spend a lot time to practice. If I finally make it to the Canadian team at one point, I would not feel guilty at all to get a few hundred dollars from MAAC to help my budget… :-)

Xavier

[xed]

You are correct, I think MAAC is a waste of money as well. What they publish would be suitable for Web content. For those who cannot read it online, they could ask a colleague to print it for them.

This is an expensive hobby, if we cannot afford it, we shouldn't be in it. But I still see no reason the majority of us should fund the enjoyment of a very small select few in this hobby.

[bob forest]

I agree with Xavier, I don't mind MAAC sponsering part of the trip for the World competitions in F3A, free flight, UControl and all the other forms of model planes. I do not have a problem with that. Many of us like competiton, and many don't. To each his own. Even myself, I will be competing a lot less this year and going to more fun fly's. But without the competition we would not have pilots demanding for a better tool. Better equipment, better designs. When we first started in this hobby, we were lucky to get 2 or 3 flights out of every 10 flights without a problem. Then the competitions started and wow, how fast equipment improved. Re the MAAC Mag, I would not pay for it, if it was on the news stands, but I do enjoy getting it, and finding out what others are doing across the country. Would you pay to have the WIMAC web site, I am sure it would be no. But I do enjoy reading about what is going on in the club. That is what the bobby is all about. There are all kinds of associations, cars, bicycles, motor bikes, etc. and all have competitions, and world championships.
I wonder where out hobby would be without the competitions?
You have to look at the MAAC thing that for your 75 bucks you get the insurance, period. All the rest comes free, you get the mag, the sponsorships etc. The reason, a lot can be done with our 75 bucks, is that all the Zone directors, up to the president, is done without pay. I can tell you that the presidents job, is a 7 to 8 hour job per day 7 days a week. We have to thank these guys for the time and effort they put into it. I wished more of you would be interested in giving one year of yourself as maybe a zone director or like myself assistant zone director. This is my second year, and that's it. Takes a lot of my time and I am not even a zone director which take 4 to 5 times what I do.
Anyone for the job for next year?

[Eric Marchand]

Xavier, I fully understand your position, however, I still agree with Greg that the money shouldn't come from the MAAC members.

For many years I was involved in Kart racing. If you think flying airplanes costs a lot of money, try competing in one of the top classes for the Quebec championship, never mind nationals or World Championship. Just competing in all the sanctioned provincial events will set you back anywhere between $10,000 and $50,000 a season, depending how big you go about it. And the best drivers out there don't get a dime from anybody, usually they sponsor themselves through a familly business. A few examples : Alex Tagliani spent years knocking on doors and borrowed every cent he could to make the transition from amateur racing to professionnal. Paul Tracy's father took a second morgage on his house to buy Paul his first serious seat in Indy. And I could name at least half a dozen local drivers that had twice their talent and never made it due to lack of funding. Competition of any form costs a lot of money, and even more personnal sacrifices, and there are no free rides, as I'm sure you yourself know. Those that do give out money for competitions do it because they calculate they will profit from it. Usually manufaturers, of course.

I don't think the majority of MAAC members shell out their yearly membership because they think they will eventually profit from it, they (we) are just buying protection, in one form or other.

Model Aviation is a great tool to promote the importance of MAAC, but like Greg said, this could probably be acomplished more cheaply through Internet.

My point is that the FAQ (Federation Auto Quebec) gets over $100 per driver per year just to regulate the sport of racing, without sponsoring anybody. They are just there to make sure everyone is as safe as they can be. MAAC is utilising funds given for one purpose, and applying it to another. I like that they ask for donations, as this becomes volontary, but when they decide to spend the money I give them for insurance and representation to help somebody talented to go compete in another country, I feel they are not fullfilling the mandate I paid for.

That being said, I believe talented competitors like yourself should be supported, but that support should come from fundraising events or volontary contributions, whatever the contributors get in return.

[Xavier]

I raced cars for many years (ice racing, solo, road racing, kart) and I have been in the FAQ directors committee for a few years so I know that car racing is way more expensive than model airplanes. I am not sure how the FAQ runs these days but there are other similar organizations that help their members to enter high level competitions. The French federation entered a pilot in the Mexican world rally event a few weeks ago. It’s not the first time they do that, and not only in rally. Obviously it’s a bigger organization and they work to get sponsors for their programs.

I am not convinced the magazine is the best tool for promoting MAAC. The content is way out of date when we receive it. The directors have to send their parts more than a month before the members receive the magazine. The same information could be on a website within hours of the event been finished. The pictures would be of better quality, in larger quantity and in color. With the existing magazine’s budget plus the advertiser’s money, I am sure MAAC could have a very nice website with all the functions needed and people could print whatever they want. Anyone would then be able to visit an interesting website and found useful information. That would promote MAAC a lot more in my opinion.

The existing content of the magazine is boring for most members. Some members have told me they throw it in the garbage without even opening it. The only thing they expect from the 75$ is the insurance coverage. Out of the 75$ per year, the insurance is about 10$ if I understand the numbers right, and the magazine is about 9$. Running the organization takes the rest. Getting sure we could use the frequencies is one reason MAAC is there. How could an independent club deal with the government for frequencies? How could that same club deal with an insurance company and for 10$ get the coverage we have? MAAC has the same problems as the clubs. Why someone would need to be member of a club? Anyone could fly a model airplane in an empty field. Why spend 100$ to be member of Wimac? All the reasons why MAAC exist should be on the first page of the website maybe.

I think that most people don't know how MAAC was created. It was a group of competitors who got together to organize themselves and have common rules for competitions. At the time the membership was mostly competitor. It has evolved over the years and now only minorities enter official competitions. That’s why years ago, the allocation for FAI competitions was revised and the same amount is now provided for ‘fun fly’ type events thru the zone director.

Xavier

[bob forest]

Again, I agree 100% with Xavier, he can put it into words much better than I can.

[beto9]

This is a festering discussion that goes back many years. If I understood correctly there was some years ago a big fight in MAAC regarding the sponsoring (paying for...) of competitors going to competitions.
Whatever... I believe:
1) If the magazine is so costly convert it into a Web site. Stop polluting and felling trees. The advertising could still be done, the reading will be optional. It is soooo boring and out of date by the time we receive it that I hardly look at it.
2) In the MAAC yearly adhesion form have a box indicating if besides the yearly fees you want to contribute to send members to official competitions, and how much. If everyone were to contribute $1 I understand we could raise a fair amount. How many members are we?
3) There is no doubt the people serving at MAAC are dedicated to the hobby and we should thank them for their efforts. However, President and Zone directors get a per-diem for expenses. I do not begrudge that, is only to point that some expenses are covered.


And the most important of all is: when our Zone Directors are going to canvass the members regarding those issues to have them represent the Zone's majority position?

I think the biggest threat to our continued existence here in Quebec is not even in the blotter for MAAC's AGM. Is that so?

[bob forest]

Yes the expenses are paid, re zone director for gas. , the president, his travel expenses are paid, but he does travel across Canada. Re the AGM, the CPTAQ is a big part of the AGM on their program. Steve has been working on it for the last month. I am going to Brossair this weekend to bring to them the 2500 dollars for part of their legal fees.
Their has been a lot of work being done by the Clubs that are afected by the CPTAQ, and they are the ones that correspond between each other. To start having every club in meetings would be such a big effort to organize, and like many other events, not many would show up. Just last night we had a one hour meeting on the CPTAQ, and it was during one of my favorite TV programs.
Again, anyone that wants my job next year and get his 200 dollars of gas, that is what I put in for last year can have it. Let's see how many put their names in.

[Safety First]

Shoud we get MAAC funding at WIMAC because we have a good training program and we promote the hobby?

What are we aming at? Get as much members and average flyers to pay for the operation or exposure in Patagonia for a happy few?

If manufacturers don't give enough money for top gun pilots then why do fly with banner on their plane.

May be if they don't sponser because it's not profitable?

Manufacturer realy don't care about MAAC ,WIMAC, and all the "ac" you can think of. They care about money!

All technical improvement we benefit from come from the manufacturers industrial branch and we get the side effect that explain the low level of sponsering.


May be 1/10% of MAAC members can use all the functions it their tx and yet they buy the last generation radio system. Remember those two word's in marketing NEW and IMPROVED.

Down to earth...

Should we increase our help to local MAAC excecutive? yes!

Should we get rid of the magasine and get a real web site? yes!

Should we sponsor the Patagonia pilots? no!

Doit-on privilégié les membres "ordinaires"? OUI!!!!


Une opinion...

PS: Non je ne suis pas marxiste.

[beto9]

Todo el mundo al paredon! Viva Fidel....

[Safety First]

Not yet Alberto. Lets wait for the AGM but we should get our potato gun ready!

[Eric Marchand]

If nothing else, this thread is very instructive. I want to thank Xavier for shedding light on the origins of MAAC. Based on this, I can see better how competition sponsorship would be part of the heritage. Maybe if this was made clearer by MAAC itself, the debate would be lessened.

I also tip my hat to all the volonteers that work for the organisation, like Bob, Steve, Xavier at one point (probably still is, in a more obscure form, along with many others). I know first hand the demands made of volonteer work, and I don't mean what little I do for WIMAC.

I also enjoyed the many interesting propositions and ideas. I hope some of them make it all the way to the top !

[isabel]

Whenever you are part of a group you get certain advantages and certain disadvantages. If the trade-off is good, you agree to be part of the group, if not, you don't.

The main advantage is the economy of scale. It would not be possible for an individual to get insurance at the same price as they get through the MAAC group. It would not be possible to get legislation of the frequencies.

The disadvantage is, the group is not tailor-made for you. They represent a variety of interests and a variety of different people. So, not 100% of the resources will be committed to what you personally desire. Some small part of the money will go towards other people. For example, people who compete in a discipline you don't. Or, legislation for those who fly rockets.

[Denis Cloutier]

I agree with André. We pay for insurance and that is what I expect to get in return. If my insurance cost is really only $10 why should I pay $75!!!!. 95% of members only need MAAC for insurance. Most federation or association are there to regulate and organise, and are government funded, why we should it be different for us. Without insurance MAAC would die in 5 minutes.
MAAC
:worship:

[bob forest]

Some oif you mentioned that MAAC should do this or that at the AGM, Well our AZM that we had, was the time for you to speak up and admenments or propositions or whatever else you want has to be done at the AZM. It is brought up and then voted on by the group that are there. Then the Zone Director takes that to the AGM. If you don't show up at the AZM then that is not MAAC fault that they don't listen to you.
By the way, do you think that your car insurance cost the company let's say the 800 a year you pay. No, it might cost them only 200 dollars, the rest is to make the thing work. At 10 dollars trying to run the organization we would be lucky to have 300 dollars of insurance.
Read what Xavier said, that MAAC started by a a bunch of competitive flyers who realized if something happens, their house insurance did not cover them. What I have a hard time understanding, is that we all buy the RC Mags, and the news in their is at least 3 months old. and you pay up to 10 dollars for one mag. Then you complain about the MAAC mag that the news is 2 months old. Fine it is about your zone, but don't you want to know what is going on with other zones in your own country. Or would you rather read old news that are 3 months old from the USA.
Every years MAAC gives a cheque to a student that is in the Hobby, which helps him pay towards his education. Also try and fly in the USA when you go down there without your MAAC card. AMA also has a mag, beautifully done which comes with your membership fee. Also 2 to 3 months old news. The mag is as good as the info we get. We have been trying to get news from different clubs, so far WIMAC and Napierreville have been the only two clubs to send in some news. It is very sad to read here what some of you think of the MAAC organization. Again, like Xavier said it is not only insurance. Your frequencies are protected by the Federal gvt. This is MAAC that gets this done. by people who do it on a volunteer basis. Yes MAAC pays their gas to go to the meeting. but these meetings can go on all day and longer.
Why has not another organization come up with a competive price and do what MAAC does. I can tell you it has been tried, and failed.
Sorry for the long message, but I feel I had to get it off my chest. By the way, 5 accidents were caused by RC aircraft in Canada in 2007, and one was pretty expensive. So it nice to be covered for 5 million dollars for 75 dollars a year.

[Jeremy Cartlidge]

I am truly thankful that for only $75 per year I am able to enjoy this hobby hassle free. Many of us operate high performance machines that use coveted areas of the radio spectrum. Without MAAC and the unpaid people who give their time to run the organization, our hobby could have become tightly regulated and restricted. Try to fly a 36kg model or to fly your model for hire and you will understand that MAAC membership is a bargain at $75. What if we had to register our planes and pay the Government admin fees? What if we had to get a radio licence to operate a Tx?

Bob and Steve get my vote of thanks for the volunteer work they do for us in the Zone. It is healthy to have a good discussion on these issues, but we should hold it at the next zone meeting. I support them and trust them to represent us at the AGM.

[Eric Marchand]

I started all this by listing afew items, thinking the debate would be centered around how we were going to adapt at the club level if these resolutions were to pass. Then almost everybody focused on just the one item that had to do with money (me included) and the thread degenerated into MAAC trashing by some and MAAC defense by others...:fighting: Had I known it was going to generate such negative emotions and dissent within our own ranks, I might have refrained. I apologise to those who got agravated by this thread...:oops: This was not my intent...

I

New UAV committee
New noise guidelines
MAAC Membership dues paid after sept 1st carry over to the next year, like we do at WIMAC
No more flying form outside pilot stations, even for take offs and landings
Travel funding for international IMAC competitors
Insurance incidents to be posted on MAAC website and in Model Aviation
Power endorsements for pilots earning their wings using electric powered planes only



Why didn't this thread turn into a technologically filled discussion on UAV's ? Or a list of ideas on how to reduce noise ? Or about take-off and landing techniques that help those that need to perform these from the runway ?

Maybe all this snow is making us grumpy...:mob:

[Safety First]

I think were mixing apples an oranges here.I don't think anybody said that MAAC was useless just that we need little adjusments.Like MAAC mag on a web site. Don't you think that more members having a direct access to a "national" site, forum,ect... would give the organisation a better idea of whats going on across the country.Take Wimac as an example the web site has become the most important part in the organisation communication and what about visibilty to the "outside world".

Special events:Some of Maac members wan't to go at an international competition good! Lets put a dedicated fund raising you willsee first if members are interrersted (cheap survey) and if they are,the money will come in, 5$,10$ may be 25$ .In order to create some interrest we need a well organise site.

The fact that Maac was created by a bunch of flyers in need of insurance protection remains the same today.I think this is clear! (I forgot freq protection).

MAAC is the result of this need.

Am I ready to pay for updated sevices? yes

Again, do our zone directors need more help (including $)? yes

Do we finance international events? no


ps:The basic member want's:

A safe place to fly.
Insurance and freq protection.
Well organised local club.

PSS:The opinion expessed on this memo is partly mine and alot true life in an organization.


Éric you don't have to apologize for anything this is part of litle household management situation in any group.

Qui n'avance pas recule! S'exprimer et avancer!

[bob forest]

Andre, Not everyone has a computor strong enough to download a mag. I belong to CAA and I get their mag. They also send it over the web. But me I like to sit and read, not sit in front of my computor and read a off a screen. Then if I have to print it, well you know the price of Inc for these printers, So at the next AZM, take a lot of the good stuff that was said on this Discussion and bring it with you to the AZM and try and get it passsed by the members that are there. Take the time and organize a good presentation that will sell the ideas to the members and they will vote for the subjects that you bring up, and then the Zone Director will bring it to the AGM, make his presentation to the directors, and a vote will be taken.
By the way the UAV thing is on the program for this year, as one zone brought it up, I don't think it was our zone.
I just went and had a look at the MAAC site. The Events ST. Lawrence Zone. Only one club has a few events, then Steve and I get emails from members saying, why is not our event there. Well it is up to the club to put it there. It is all set up for you to do it. We do not know when a club is going to have an event. Just to let you know, that nobody will know, if nobody says anything about it.
This is the last for me on this subject, and I know no one really meant to hurt anyone. By the way, Eric is one that our zone can depend on for news, as he is the one that took the time to write to us.
Thanks to all.
Bob
MAAC 4131-L

[Safety First]

O.K Bob lets get practical here.

- Maac mag:On MAAC renewal we get the choice of (on line) or (paper)

_ If you don't get anything from the clubs for MAAC mag in our zone it's probably because nobody is interested to do it or there no need for it... MAAC official should not have to play kindgarten animator.

- Zone directors are not marketing agents and wont do the job for us. We want something? I agree with you, we present it in the proper format and there it goes.bUT STILL WE SHOULD ALLOW OURSELF TO DISCUSS THIS ON A FORUM.

- This thread as been on for 3-4 days? and how many members expressed their opinion?... (8-9...) I'M DONE TO.

[Jeremy Cartlidge]

Eric, you were right to bring these AGM items to our attention. It has been a healthy airing of views. Andre, well said - I agree with your comments.

P.S. We have the best club web site in Canada (thanks Greg) and it serves as a focal point for club information, especially in the winter. The hobby needs more sites like it.

[beto9]

Nothing gets the juices flowing better at WIMAC than a good discussion. And all who felt agravated by what some people say should remember that if it is criticism it is done not to antagonize but to express an opinion.

All said, I will take issue (what a surprise!) with a few things said.

The way moneys are spent at MAAC should be compared to the way they are spent at WIMAC. We sponsor indoor flying and snow flying to members by financing the access to both events. It is done in the spirit to benefit the most members. I would like to compare that with sending at quite an expense a few people to faraway places to compete. I have nothing about showing the Maple Leaf everywhere, on the contrary, I pin it in my lapel when I am abroad. But the economics of sending our best to competitions should be made in a voluntary format by those that want to sponsor the participants. Therefore, funds should be raised by donations.

No problem with paying $75 per year for an insurance that costs $10 (?). The rest of the money is spent in maintainig the organization. But sometimes it seems the organization doesn't justify itself in certain areas. There are two committees that have not contibuted anything in many years, at least! One is the one regarding preservation of flying fields (try to download the document... you have to pay) and the other regarding noise standards (try to find what are the hard standards in Canada). And probably others, but those two are enough for the example.

The magazine would cost muchs less if made into a Web site and the contributions would flow. This WIMAC site is a good example of a small community keeping it vibrant (and controversial). The magazine is out of date when you receive it because of the lack of contributions (so, is that a vote for the interest the magazine generates?) and the large lead times required (a Web site would cut that to zero...) Perhaps a MAAC Web site will invite too much criticism...

I wonder how our Zone Directors will vote in all those proposals. Why should I wonder?

And so it goes...