Just to wake you up ....

[AlixB]

Enjoy!

http://www.crazyaviation.com/movies/CA_SU-30.wmv

and getting close and personal...

[beto9]

Canards and most likely thrust vectoring... They are approachin IMAAC 3D capabilities...., jeee...jeeee...
Alix, are you still here or getting warmed by the se?oritas?

[Dwight Macdonald]

The elevator isn't very effective on landing. I wonder what they use to get pink smoke? ... I suppose red Tremclad spray paint would work ... a bit messy on the plane perhaps ... maybe a good way to paint a coroplast combat plane? ... a couple of tail slides, a lomcevac(sp?) and a hammerhead with paint spray on full ...

[AlixB]

The elevator from what I understand is under the absolute control of the fly by wire. This is the way it reacts to the pilot input. The pilot uses the stick to tell the angle of attack and the computer reacts this way since we are at stall speed. As you said the elevator is not very effective...(near the stall)

Alberto. I am leaving the 6 of December and returning the first of May.
I am leaving with 2 complete metal head Trexexs, one spare Rex for parts, 7 set of blades, 3 extra belts and other spare parts.
I intend to do some(hopeful paying) aerial photography with a 7 megapixel Fuji Finepix F10zf camera mounted on one of the rexes.

No plane this year. Andrew, you tried hard and nearly won. Seeing you flying expertly the Extra nearly got me in trouble. The problem with A/C is their fragility during transportation.

[AlixB]

The world's first thrust vectored radio-controlled jet airplane. Pilot: Sebastiano Silvestri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFypnPK1dPU

very impressive!

[Dwight Macdonald]

Amazing! Very stable at high alpha! The only thing missing is the pink smoke ...

[stephane.savard]

What?! after that great flying, all he can manage is a sorta awkward flop of a landing?! Ah well, can't say I'm any better at landing planes anyway :)

He was doing a very good impression of the actual flight of the thrust vectoring migs though, very much enjoyed seeing some of that video.

[AlixB]

I could be wrong...

The man is doing a military approach, he could have elected for a long shallow approach and a powered on greaser (the type that gets passengers clapping).

High speed downwind.
High G turn to bleed all airspeed.
Let it all hang down to slow down in base.
Raise AOA to bleed off what is left of extra airspeed in final.
At this point the only option is lower the nose to counter scary high rate of descent. (jet lag + not much air over the surfaces)
Raise the nose at the last second to cut the rate of descent and make the final flare.
Touch down occurs.
THIS IS THE ONLY TIME THAT THE A/C IS ALIGNED WITH THE RUNWAY.
The 40 pounder is no longer flying, no secondary bounce.
I like it...

[Dwight Macdonald]

It looks to me like what you describe Alix, although I wonder if the double "Raise AOA to bleed off what is left of extra airspeed in final" is standard or an unusual correction because he didn't get it right with the first one.

[AlixB]

Interesting remark Dwight.

You are on the ball.

You guys are really sleeping. :-)
I meant turbine lag not jet lag...

Let's put it this way. This kind of approach is not for the faint hearted.
The golden rule for any A/C is: If you fail to align and to control the sink rate in final, lower the nose, full power, clean it up and get the h... out of there.
You can even hide it as a high speed low pass :-)

Whether he got there voluntarily or not is debatable.

Dwight, I think he was taken aback by the high sink rate and not enough thrust left from the turbine (these things take 3 to 4 secs to spool up or down).
To compound it, don't forget that thrust vectoring (if it was enabled) allows more AOA than the wing can take. Therefore, he did not get right the first time the combo Thrust/angle of attack to control the sink rate.
You are supposed to raise the AOA to reduce airspeed and HOLD it. He (IMHO) went below what would be recommended approach airspeed.

What I find brilliant is what he did of the situation...
For those that don't know him, he is one of the top IMAC pilots in the world.

p.s. The man flirted with disaster more than once in this video

[beto9]

OK, quick questions:
How is thrust vectoring controlled in the radio? Is that setup as a mix with other surface(s) or controlled by a switch/knob?
Also, how is it mechanically done in the exhaust? Vanes or the whole exhaust moves...
I also thought that he was about to stall it.... just a gut feeling. It was my high ALPHA telling me that the AOA was mispelled....
It is also my visual experience of other fliers that when they attempt to line up late in the approach a bump (or two) happens, mercifully.... and some regluing is required.... it seems that one of the most difficult decisions is to abort a landing, I don't know why!

[Ronald Longtin]

3 or 4 seconds to spool up sounds like an awfully long time. Is it really that long or does it feel that way?

[AlixB]

Ronald, typical spool up from idle to full is 3 to 7 secs.

Consider that a well tuned DA100 takes some fractions of a second!

Alberto, If I had all the answers I would be flying one myself ! (mmmmh actually...i have a few ideas :-))

Seriously. It would make sense to have a permanent mixing present. Most high performance plane with a wide flight enveloppe are flown with one to 3 different modes. The pilot has enough to take care of without the burden of Vectoring or not (he already has gear and most likely a few degrees of flaps). If I were to use it, it would start to operate smoothly from around the center and violently at full throw (Exponential)
The problem on landing is that often the throws have to be pretty close to the 3D setup since the controls are sluggish near stall speed.

Hence my suspicion that the vectoring was somehow enabled on landing.

[Eric Marchand]

;) Aha ah...I think I know what shape these few ideas might take...

[stephane.savard]

Alix, why not build a Me262 out of coroplast and join us in combat :)

[Eric Marchand]

hmmm. Twin brushless ducted fans...Might be competitive !

[jeffrey g]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/f-22-raptor5.htm

As you can see in this page, the vectoring is mixed with the normal controls

very interesting

[beto9]

Very interesting... why not sideways vectoring?
And I am sure that in the Mig's case the canards help a lot... did you see them moving in one of the manouvers?
It seems the Russians and Americans are running a very close race in development....

[Eric Marchand]

With aeronautics packages capable of detecting, identifying, and triggering fire and forget weapons over 10 miles away from a target (way before visual contact), I have a hard time seeing why it should be important to develop the ultimate dogfighter...

Any inputs ?

[Dwight Macdonald]

Good point Eric.

[beto9]

Hope the Americans and Russians can answer that... because this is what they are doing...
For my part, I think is to increase sales to all those countries that want to have new toys but will never get the latest missiles from them.
Now, us for example. Why do we go always for the latest fashion in R/C? I remember when everyone (including myself) had to have an Ultra Stick to be able to fly the crow, therefore needing a better radio system. Then it was 3D (high Alphas or not!) Then the new lipo batteries triggered a rush to newfangled chargers and ceramic containers in case they burst into fire. Then, TRexes were declared the winner in the helis races...
Ooh!, shut up Albert.... I am still trying to fly upside down.... ;-(

[stephane.savard]

At the current closing speeds between jet fighters, how many minutes (seconds?) is there between the time that a fighter is in range fire a missile and then "too close" to assure a hit? at which point the pilot must begin maneuvering to the tail of the other enemy fighter.

Maybe this is the reason?

[xed]

Well missiles are not foolproof, they are mechanical and can fail or be decoyed by enemy technology.

What if you run out of flares or your own set of missiles? You may need to engage the enemy up-close-and-personal, especially with the new reflective anti-radar designs.