Indoor Flying Season - 2008

[xed]

*** MARCH 25th IS THE LAST INDOOR FLYING SESSION UNTIL NEXT WINTER ***

Location:
College Beaubois
4901 rue du College Beaubois, Pierrefonds
Quebec H8Y 3T4

[Directions (http://www.collegebeaubois.qc.ca/images/test-carte.jpg)]

Parking is available on the West side of the school.

Schedule:

Tuesdays, from January 8th to March 25th, 2008, excluding March 4th, 2008 (school closed)
Dates: [Calendar (http://www.wimac.ca/forum/calendar.php)]
Time: 6:30PM to 8:30PM
11 sessions total

Fee Structure:

WIMAC members no charge.
Non-members pay $10.00 per session.

If you do not have a plane to fly indoors, you can come as a spectator for free of charge. Please wear indoor shoes or take your boots off while on the gym floor to ensure the floor does not get all marked up.

[Dwight Macdonald]

I would like some input concerning rules for the indoor flying. In the past we set the weight limit for aircraft to be about 16oz. With the availability of lighter high performance equipment ... should this be set lower (eg 12oz) for better risk management.

[Andrew Fernie]

I don't see much impact on people flying airplanes if we move to 12oz. I have only seen larger airplanes flown a couple of times and they really didn't seem to be suitable for a gym.

The impact would be more on the helicopter side. Any comments from the heli crowd as what would or would not meet a 12oz (or 16oz) target.

[Safety First]

T-Rex indoor... Safe?... Main rotor 2500 RPM, carbon fiber blades, many people less than 20 ft away.

Just something to think about.

[JimmyG]

I don’t thing we can use weight in regards to micro helicopters. In general a heli will exceed the weight of your average foamy.

Here are some numbers

Blade CP approx. 12 ounces
AXE CP approx. 16 ounces without battery
TREX 450 22 ounces Head speed 2500 – 3000 rpm

I my self would not feel comfortable flying circuits with the TREX 450 in doors as this is a high performance machine to be enjoyed out doors.

I would feel more comfortable flying tight figure 8’s with the Blade CP, but that’s me at my current skill level.

Again I don’t think that weight is an issue with the micro heli’s, but head speed and performance (power) is.

My 2 cents

[Dwight Macdonald]

I feel we need to set the limit below some of the TREX (whatever the model is) that were flown in previous years ... they seemed a bit much for indoor to me ... has MAAC or any other agency set some safety guidelines on this topic?

[xed]

I feel we need to set the limit below some of the TREX (whatever the model is) that were flown in previous years ... they seemed a bit much for indoor to me ... has MAAC or any other agency set some safety guidelines on this topic?

They skate around the subject, from their safety guide, which I just posted recently...

4.8 INDOOR R/C


I will fly aircraft (in size, weight, speed and other flight characteristics) that are compatible with the size of the indoor flying space.
I will ensure that my aircraft and radio control equipment are in good condition and fully functional, prior to the first flight at each flying session.
I will abide by the safety rules for the flying site I use, and will not willfully or deliberately fly my model(s) in a careless, reckless, or dangerous manner.
I will follow the recommendations of the manufacturer or supplier of the cells/batteries I am using in regard to their safe usage, charging, and disposal, and I will closely monitor my batteries while charging.
I will abide by any rules or restrictions requested by the owner or manager(s) of the building.
I will not leave behind any model parts, wreckage, or other materials or refuse when leaving the flying site.

[Safety First]

What about limiting the main rotor span or motor size? Jimmy what would be the average size for a 12 to 16 heli? In other words ,what would you be comfortable with regardless of the pilot flying level.

[JimmyG]

The power plant in a 12 to 16 ounce heli is usually a 370 – 380 sized motor.
Given the space available, I think 300 sized helicopters would accommodate all pilot skill levels and flying styles.
I would be comfortable with under 400 class heli’s (400w motors).

[Safety First]

Main rotor less than 600 mm (23 1/2")?

[Dwight Macdonald]

Great input guys! Keep it going ... any input from those who have been flying helis indoor in previous years?

[Denis Cloutier]

T-Rex 450 is easier to control than any blade CP or smaller Heli that do not have a real tail rotor. I prefer a T-Rex 450 in control than a Blade CP out of control. Do not forget that Heli do not fly circuit inside but use square the size of ? the size of the gym (4 Heli in the double gym):confused:

[Dwight Macdonald]

Good points Denis! Keep the thread rolling ... invite your heli friends to participate ...

[Dwight Macdonald]

Everyone working too hard to pay for their habbit? I'm putting in a few minutes per night to build a Byp Yak ... a bit heavier than my previous indoor airplanes ... this one will be about 11oz while my others are 6 to 8oz.

[Kevin Rochon]

You'll enjoy that Byp Yak specially on the knife edge. It just love staying on its side.

Kevin

[AlixB]

Now that a have a few hundred flights with the Rexes here is my $.02
It would be a pity to ban the rexes (or equivalent less than 2 lbs helis)
They are incredibly precise and reliable machines that can be flown safely in VERY tight spaces by a competent pilot.
The sound of a spooling up Trex is VERY intimidating and command respect.
However when using wooden blades the Rex crashes are VERY predictable.
The blades break on contact and rapidly decay the accumulated energy.
The pieces of the wooden blades are relatively harmless.
The crashes are more spectacular than anything and damage is usually very limited.

Carbon blades are another story...
Some carbon blades can cut an aluminum tail boom...
A wooden blade strike does not even dent the boom.
Just the idea of carbon shards in my body makes me shiver...
A CP2 or Blade CP\(sub 10 oz heli) with carbon blades indoor is more dangerous IMHO than a Rex with wooden blades.

Oops, by the way, Happy New Year to all of you !!!

[beto9]

I propose we have a few (6 or 7) crashes of Rexes to test Alixe's knowledge. Who is willing to step forward?
Alix, I was thinking you were out in the cold there in sunny Mexico... but I see the gods of warm thermals are keeping you in the pink...
Viva Corona, vivan las se?oritas!
In the meantime, we are here slogging in the snow and keeping our planes in the air without thermals, actually with unthermals.....
Come back soon with a few thermal se?oritas....

[Denis Cloutier]

You are right Alix,

I crashed my T-Rex 2 time inside last year indoor at College Beaubois. Wood balsa covered blades made minimal damage on the T-Rex and debris did not spread close to anybody. I would not fly inside with carbon or fibreglass blades or propeller, too dangerous.

Happy New Year to all.

Denis:)

[Dwight Macdonald]

Great input guys! Thanks!

It sounds like we should allow the T-Rex or equivalent helis that are less than 2 pounds but strongly encourage or require wood rotor blades ...

What do others think? Our first session is this Tuesday ... I would like as much input as possible ...

[Kevin Rochon]

Are we having a get toghether for supper before or after the indoor as was discussed a while back?
If we are let me know, someone call me at home PLS, cause I'm not working tomorrow so no email or forum.

thanks
Kevin

[Dwight Macdonald]

I think we had decided to do it another night because it will be either too early or too late for most people on the same night as the indoor ... any current suggestions on the when and where?

[Dwight Macdonald]

Don't forget to renew your MAAC for 2008. You will need it to fly indoor ... or outdoor ...

Renewing your WIMAC will allow you to fly indoor for free! ... otherwise it will be $10 per session ... just a friendly reminder.

[Dwight Macdonald]

The first session last night went very well. We had 9 WIMAC members flying and 1 non-member. A good even mix of heli and fixed wing aircraft.

How about eating out after one of our sessions ... as previously suggested? Who would be willing to eat that late? Kevin has suggested buffet Fulam on Boul Des Sources ... is it open that late with fresh food?

[Andrew Fernie]

Eating after our session would be fine with me.

Buffet Fulam would be fine. An alternative could be Moe's on St-Jean's near the 40. That would allow those who don't want to eat to just come for a beer.

Andrew

[Dwight Macdonald]

We need to be sure the buffet isn't stale or the kitchen almost closed by 9pm. Any suggestions for a place closer to the gym?

[Michael V]

The Res beside loblaws on St.Jean.

[Dwight Macdonald]

La Residence ("The Res" as Michael calls it) sounds good to me ... is tomorrow to soon to plan for? Would next week be better? I would like to call them first to find out if 9pm is too late to arrive ... unless someone knows for sure.

[Michael V]

Tomorrow is good, for me at least.
And the Res is open late, there shouldn'e be a problem.
4705 Bd St Jean, Pierrefonds, Telephone : 514-626-6803

[Dwight Macdonald]

Lets plan for the Res at 9pm tonight ... if a reasonable number at the indoor tonight are able to go.

[Michael V]

I have to fix a friends car,

[Dwight Macdonald]

Another nice indoor session with 12 pilots flying fixed wing and heli. Five of us went to "the Res" afterward for supper and had a great time! The Canadians even won 3:1!

We agreed to suggest that we meet again there for supper for 2 weeks after the indoor ... ie Jan 29.

[Dwight Macdonald]

I wasn't there last week. How did it go?

Is anyone up for supper at "The Residence" on Boul. St. Jean (about a block south of Boul Pfds on the east side) after this weeks session on Jan 29?

[Andrew Fernie]

I can go for supper after the indoor this week.

Andrew

[beto9]

Moi aussi!

[Xavier]

I finally tested something I wanted to try for a long time yesterday. Indoor Electric Control Line ! Actually I tried it 2 weeks ago with a GWS Stick modified with a Cox handle and a dubro bellcrank. It went well enough that I took an old foamie and did the same mod. I used a TX and a receiver for trotlle control for now and I will see if I found something better. There are some adjustments to do including to the pilot but it was interesting. Loops, inverted flight, Harrier and hovering ! See it there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6zAcOiIVK8

Xavier

[Andrew Fernie]

I guess that indoor control line is kind of like flying a heli with a huge rotor missing one blade, really slow head speed, and a crooked swash plate. Xavier, you can fly anything!

Andrew

[Dwight Macdonald]

Cool! ... It makes me dizzy to watch ... and brings back memories! I think there was an article in a recent MAAC mag where someone did indoor control line flying.

[beto9]

Sooooo.....
We are going... right?

[xed]

I'm going...

[Dwight Macdonald]

I'm planning to go ... four of us so far. Let's say it's a go with all who can come, no reservation necessary.

[Dwight Macdonald]

Another great session last night! There were 11 WIMAC pilots (including a new member as a result of the indoor fee structure), one visiting flyer and several WIMAC and non-WIMAC spectators. For supper afterwards at Le Residence we were 7.

[Denis Cloutier]

Great fliyng session. I will try to be there for the flying and restaurant next week.

[Dwight Macdonald]

I will not be out to the indoor flyning tomorrow. Robert Charzan will have the clock and either Robert or Ronald can collect the $ from the non-members. Have a fun and safe session everone!

[drgilo1973]

at the end today it will be at the gym or res ???

[beto9]

... I want you all flying like this:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-7313444728254275767&hl=de
Leave the CA and kicker at home, ya hear!?

[Ronald Longtin]

Looks like you may have to use rudder, Alberto

[bob forest]

Whoever he is, very impressive. The best I have ever seen.

[Xavier]

To get that kind of flying, we need to:
Divide the weight of most planes at the indoor by 2 or 3
Divide the age of the pilots by 4 or 5
Increase the finger-brain communication by 10
Increase the practice time by 10

:-)

[Ionel]

Looks like the guy is capable of flying the plane in his bathroom while ...sitting. Cool.

[Tarek Hassoune]

I hope one day will be able to fly like him
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=219791354625794697&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

[Xavier]

I believe I have seen a post about some limitation on the type of airplane and heli to be used indoor but I can't found it.

Was there something about a maximum weight and batterie size for the airplanes ? Anything about the type or airplane ?

To me, park flyers and indoor airplanes are 2 different types and the park flyers should not be flown indoor except maybe by very experienced indoor flyer. A heavy and fast airplane could be very dangerous in a gym.

In my opinion, an indoor plane should be light, slow and have oversized control surfaces for good control at low speed. Ailerons are best for anything a little fast. They should be build to fly well and not build to resist crashes. An heavy airplane will crash more and harder anyway.

5 years ago, the choice was limited for indoor flyng. Today, there are plenty of choice for good indoor airplanes. What was acceptable 5 years ago is certainly not the best thing now. The GWS park flyers for exemple are completely outdated for indoor and could be dangerous because of their weight, speed and small control surfaces, specially with in-experienced pilots.

I think that we should talk about it before an accident happen.

Any other opinion on this subject ?

[Dwight Macdonald]

I agree with this completely and strongly encourge the use of aircraft best suited for safe indoor flying.

[beto9]

SO... what are our standards for plane and helicopter size, weight, battery size (?), control surfaces, pilot experience, etc.?

In general, we try to arrange our concerns with a friendly chat... that should be our standard # 1.

[Dwight Macdonald]

We seem to have settled on 12oz for aircraft and 24oz for heli near the beginning of this thread ... further input is welcome ...

[Xavier]

I believe that the wing loading maybe more important than the actual weight. However it's a bit complicated to check when a new plane arrive.

One reason I would like to have better guidelines is to avoid new comers (to indoor) to show up with something not adapted to indoor and we have nothing to stop them from flying it.

In general, the airplanes should have a low wing loading to fly well indoor. Too many are build to resist crashes. If they were build to fly, they would crash less and fly better. The pilots would also fly better because they would not be as stressed and they would enjoy it more.

Another reason to have guidelines is to have airplanes of similar strenght and speed. When a train hit a car, there is not much left of the car :-)

[Denis Cloutier]

For Heli it was 450 size and smaller, electric only. No carbon fiber main blades.

[Dwight Macdonald]

See you all there!

[zorba]

Silly question ,but can anyone tell me where La Residence is?
Never been there.
Bill

[nitrouspete]

My opinion is that T-rex's should be allowed because that's what I own.... But seriously, it is a serious piece of electronics and mechanics(compared to lets say a motor driven tail rotor ex: blade CP) that should be respected when flown. I would agree that using wooden blades would be preferred in the gym (I guess I should buy some). I am new to this and am taking each learning step with caution.
Size for helicopters indoors is up to the pilot and his/her experience with the given number of people flying and size of area to be flown in. NO 3D inside with people around.

Hope I can still fly Tuesday night!!!!!:confused:

[Dwight Macdonald]

Welcome to the club nitrouspete! You are also welcome to come and fly Tuesday night ... just get some pointers from some of the other experienced heli pilots and fly in one of the back corners of the gym ... farthest away from the pit area.

[Dwight Macdonald]

La Residence is on Boul St Jean, a block or so south of Boul Pierrefonds ... just across from the St Hubert.